Below, we see the most common tactic used by the FtBers. Trying to silence criticism by pointing out an actual, real problem that people face, or a true incident or tragedy that has occurred recently. In my criticism of Taslima's statement, I never once said that what happened in India was irrelevant. My criticism and what happened on this bus were completely unrelated.
The Freethought Blogs crowd uses these tactics often, even though they boycotted Dawkins for making the same mistake. Dawkins thought that western women should be more worried about men in the Middle East oppressing women than awkward elevator conversations. To an extent, I agree with him (elevatorgate was so trivial and wouldn't have set off rape-alarms in the mind of any well-adjusted person) but also recognize the fallacy he's making. Just because oppression happens in the other places, it doesn't mean we shouldn't fight lesser evils at home.
Here, @Million_Gods concludes his tweets to me, somehow saying that while I'm criticizing her for comparing Indian men to western men, I'm demonstrating proof that her claim is true. It's like he picked it right out of a playbook. It doesn't make much since, since I'm not a man, haven't mentioned a man other than my husband, and haven't said anything that would show that the men over here are just like the ones who gang-raped a girl, but this person is beyond reason and logic. They've obviously been trained to say what gets the blog hits, what gets the comment-cult fired up. This is Freethought Blogs meets Fox News.
He won't answer me to explain how I've demonstrated this "proof," but if PZ's unwillingness to make coherent arguments is any sign of their tactics, I'm sure I won't be hearing much from Avicenna. There's a blog here if he does come back and want to try and make a coherent, factual argument, but I doubt he has the desire. His goal, to slander me and stifle criticism, failed in a large way. I guess he'll have to go back to FtB school and try again another day.
1. No Western Women Shouldn't Be Worried About What Women In India have to Face. Are you daft? That's like me telling "I am sorry you don't have enough Protein, stop whinging because these Sudanese people have no protein and are getting killed by militiamen. To the western woman these things are important, to my patients some things are important that aren't to you guys.
ReplyDelete2. You cannot tell people what they should feel about something. I am terrified of cockroaches, I shouldn't be scared of them considering the massive size differences involved but I still am. You have no rights to tell me that my experiences that led me to fear the roach is invalid because you don't fear it. Same applies to women apprehensive of men. Would you like to see what it's like for an Indian woman? They are petrified of men... Because to them Men = Rape. Men = Harassment. Now you and your husband may get insulted by this and snort and snuffle your indignations but frankly these women don't fucking care. They live in the world of iron bar sodomy by rape gangs that travel in rape buses. Your problem doesn't mean a blind bit of difference to these women. Taslima lives in India. We have to put up with stories of women burned alive by men whose "stalker like behaviour" was ignored.
3. My girlfriend was harassed in Spain by Indians who followed her around. A white lady would have fought back, because of her culture she kept her head down and tried to ignore them. They only left her alone after she walked past a cop. 1.2 billion Indians on the planet. That's a 1 out of every 7 men. If we throw in the sub-continent this is 1 in 6 men to "fear".
4. I was actually given a blog there because I fought for women's healthcare in Afghanistan and was part of a (now successful) campaign on healthcare for women in the Philippines. I also have worked with sex workers and the Hijra.
5. Twitter is a fucking terrible way of arguing because you are limited in what you say. You know what? You are whining about why every man is slandered by Taslima (a woman who has been running from men trying to kill her for a fair few years). And you cannot see why? She lives in a country where women who travel are warned about sexual harassment and rape. Come to India, watch out for the molesters and rapists!
6. Your biggest complaint about the rape of women (I forget which article got you hopping mad) was that men were implicated in a culture of rape. That the culture of India that caused the rapes was the same as America's. And you took umbrage because MEN GOT INSULTED. Not because a 16 year old girl got raped by men who play a sport and they got defended by people. Or by the fact that Taslima and me have been reporting on some of the most tragic stories. I mean I went to provide medical care for one of the rape protests, do you really think I should blog about that or "What I had for Lunch"?
7. If you don't like what we write, don't read it. I am not holding a gun to your head.
Seriously? It's like when I wrote an article about the medicine of Female Genital Mutilation and someone came in to talk about male circumcision... an entirely different topic.
Now if the men in your life don't rape people then "good", however you still live in a culture that encourages it. If you disagree then "fine". It's your life. However don't fucking tell us what to campaign about.
Savvy?
1) "No Western Women Shouldn't Be Worried About What Women In India have to Face."
ReplyDeleteI never said that.
2) "You cannot tell people what they should feel about something."
Never said that, but if your feelings are irrational, I can judge them however I see fit.
" Would you like to see what it's like for an Indian woman? They are petrified of men... Because to them Men = Rape. Men = Harassment. Now you and your husband may get insulted by this and snort and snuffle your indignations but frankly these women don't fucking care."
The current state of affairs in India has no bearing on whether or not Taslima was wrong to say that "men everywhere are the same," relating ALL MEN to rapists. I'm as upset as she is at what is happening in India and many other countries where women are oppressed, but that is NOT the discussion we are having. Please stay on topic. The topic is: Taslima Nasreen said that ALL MEN are the same as the RAPISTS and MISOGYNISTS in the video she posted.
3. Another anecdote that doesn't prove that ALL MEN ARE THE SAME AS RAPISTS AND MISOGYNISTS.
4) " I was actually given a blog there because I fought for women's healthcare in Afghanistan and was part of a (now successful) campaign on healthcare for women in the Philippines. I also have worked with sex workers and the Hijra. "
You should have declined, They are despicable people who use very poor debate tactics, witch hunts and fallacies. Then again, since that's a lot of what I've seen from you, you fit in nicely.
I'd ask you what you mean by "worked with sex workers" but it's off topic and I dont care to derail the original issue, which -- I'll state again -- is that Taslima Nasreen stated that ALL MEN ARE THE SAME EVERYWHERE.
5) " You are whining about why every man is slandered by Taslima (a woman who has been running from men trying to kill her for a fair few years). " Yep. Because being a victim of something doesn't make you infallible. She may have gone through some terrible things and my heart goes out to her for that, but the fact remains: She claimed that ALL MEN ARE THE SAME and she is wrong and the statement is bigoted. If you replaced "men" with ANY OTHER GROUP, you'd have a lot of people up in arms. What if she had said, "Women are the same everywhere," or "Black people are the same everywhere?" Just because she's struggled, doesn't mean she's always right.
6)"Your biggest complaint about the rape of women (I forget which article got you hopping mad) was that men were implicated in a culture of rape. That the culture of India that caused the rapes was the same as America's. "
ReplyDeleteCitation needed. There is a huge difference between the laws and culture in our two countries. Your country marries girls off as young as eleven, you often don't prosecute rapists and the rape victim is often seen as "broken" or a pariah in your culture. In the US, we prosecute as many as we can, we sympathize with women for their plight and try to protect them, but we still have a MINORITY of assholes, usually young, dumb teenagers, who make insensitive jokes and statements so they can get laughs from their friends. Nice try, but there is still NOTHING TO BACK UP THE CLAIM THAT MEN ARE THE SAME EVERYWHERE.
7. "If you don't like what we write, don't read it. I am not holding a gun to your head."
I often don't, but YOU came onto MY twitter and exchanged with ME. Don't forget that. No one held a gun to your head and said, "Hey, go reply to @tkmlac."
"Seriously? It's like when I wrote an article about the medicine of Female Genital Mutilation and someone came in to talk about male circumcision... an entirely different topic."
No, that's what YOU did. I was talking about Taslima's broad statement about men everywhere and you came in talking about the Delhi rape and rape culture in India.
"If you disagree then "fine". It's your life."
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.
"All [___] are the same" leads to genocide. Katie is right to complain, and further correct to continue to stubbornly hold the wheel while whomever else tries to drive the conversation elsewhere. This is the conversation she is (and vicariously I/we are) having, regardless of how it started.
ReplyDeleteWell done Katie, an excellent demonstration of focus in the face of wild, albeit impassioned, derailling.
ReplyDeleteYour correspondent can't seem to appreciate that the mere act of writing about a tragedy doesn't give the writer a free pass to promote bigotry.
Thank you, Paul and corsepants. It's hard to tell if this person is using this tactic on purpose or if he just isn't aware that it's a fallacy.
ReplyDeleteThe rape in India disgusts me. The way the police and government handle these situations is absolutely deplorable. The culture that shames these women enables these assholes. That has nothing to do with whether or not Talsima's statement about men everywhere is true.
If it disgusts you so much then why have you been silent about it? Why haven't you spoke out about it or indeed even about the MRA's around you who support AVfM who came out and claimed men have it worse in India. Why aren't you slamming the Slymepit for hosting Raep who has repeatedly shown support for AVfM? Why haven't you taken on the people who belong to a group of people who support the claim that Indian Men Have It Worse despite ALL evidence to the contrary.
ReplyDeleteOh and if you do your homework and the teacher tells off the class as a whole for not, you know for a fact that she isn't talking about you. Kids understand this. Apply this logic to any statement that you think is sweeping but isn't true about you or the men/dogs/oddly shaped potatoes that you know. Otherwise you are no better than the people at A+. Use your brains. It's what separates us from the potato.
Ah, rapid fire red-herring questions, begging the question, and straw man arguments persist. You're really bad at this and making yourself look very silly. I'll address your ridiculous claims anyway, for fun, later when I have more time.
ReplyDelete